vaultofthearchonfandomcom-20200214-history
146185-elitism-does-you-no-favours
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- This is really part of the issue. I've seen people on these forums/reddit/some in game chat channels claim that pugs are for fast runs. Which makes no sense to me. Most people are going to shuffle into the queue over making premades, so you should fully expect people with bare minimum gear and knowledge when you are pugging in the queue system. If you are looking for a fast/quick run make a premade. If you dont care, go to the queue system. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- I hate to say it, but that's the kind of mentality and behavior that WoW has bred into players. They're trained over and over again that they'll be rewarded for minimal effort, and that even failure is rewarded. Corrosive behavior is barely punished with a minimum debuff where they can't re-queue, and the LFG system they're used to is filled with so many players that even the worst kinds of behaviors go unnoticed and unpunished. It's like I said in another thread: WoW has both raised up the MMO genre, and simultaneously ruined it. | |} ---- ---- Players actually made friends and had fun running with pugs. Then the sixteen-year-old COD angsty *cupcake*wits invaded and CRZ, X-realm, and LFR became a thing. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- No, it's not about being friendly and asking. It's not allowing others because of a higher standard that you personally set. Looking down on people, or not looking at people which are on your level. A belief that you're better, smart, got a certain ancestry, etcetera. That you matter more. Continue to be friendly and ask. It's a good investment. Also, new people are usually the ones that do not mind wiping. Mainly for 2 reasons. 1. It's all new. They want to see more and learn it. 2. Repairs are not as costly. Veteran players might give it a few chances and then leave, because of the higher repair bills. It's not really helping, and I suppose some don't even feel obligated to do anything helpful. | |} ---- ---- why should we? dont get me wrong if they ask in chat or whisper me ingame i always reply and be helpful. i like when they ask question because then they show me that they want to improve their gameplay which means i will have more fun playing with them in the future or we become friends and queue up together in future... but why should we engage everyone for every boss and "babysit" their progress | |} ---- There are many reasons in my mind. In a very black and white example, you're either helpful or you're not (it doesn't really work like that, but it simplifies it). Helpful people usually take the extra step and can start off as helpful without requiring other people to prove you their worth. Kind hearted people can always afford a smile. Even on a bad day. As you say, helping someone will create a bond between the people and can lead to other things as well, as in playing more together, etc. In a smaller community chances are you will run into the same person again. Not everyone do dungeons, not everyone with random people, so the part of the community that do is even smaller. Asking a "Why should we?" is a bit selfish. In your example you mention that you like when they ask questions. It's nice, I agree. Answering questions and helping people make you feel good as well. So it's pretty much a Win-Win situation. Back to selfish, you mention "I" a lot of times. "I will have more fun", "I like..". As soon as you're in a group, "I" gotta go. It's a team. Multiple people helping each other to get through the difficulties Dungeons can include. And don't forget.. Their progress in a dungeon is also Your progress. Would you prefer to wipe and potentially share information second, or share information and prevent a wipe? In my mind this all is obvious. So Why should we? Well, why should we not? Edited November 4, 2015 by Alysion | |} ---- Why do people always post things like this when the OP has a legitmate gripe. Yes simple solutions for everyone seems to be "find a good guild." You do realize not everybody wants to join a guild right? Yes we all know that is the simple fix. But doesn't work like that for everyone. Maybe the elitist should just suck it up and maybe help these people and if after a few wipes that person is really holding the run back, then ask them nicely to step out. You would think with a struggling game, the vets would want to help as many new people as they can so they will stay and enjoy the game and then they will spread the word along with help new people in return too. | |} ---- ---- ---- You talk about elitists as people who are spoon-fed and then proceed to telling us that we should spoon feed people instead of them doing the extra effort. I mean why don't they help us? It's not up to us to go to them. It's up to them to come to us. They need to help us help them.If they are not willing to learn and expect other people to reach out to them. How do you think they will learn? This is exactly what what being spoon fed means. If we help them now, what do you think they will do later? They will only expect to be carried in raids. You may call me an *cupcake*, but I learned that giving money directly to homeless people doesn't help them. Giving money to homeless charities and shelters helps them. Another example... Found a wounded wild baby animal? Taking care of them and feeding them and you just thaught them how to not survive by themselves. Hand them over to professional who know how to handle wild animals instead. It's because people like you defend lazy people in your crusade against "elitism" that we end up with so many threads like this in the first place. My guess is that the OP isn't very good and instead of taking the time to ponder on why he was kicked and how he could avoid the same situation to happen again, he ran to the forums and cried for attention like a spoon fed player would do. TL; DR: @OP - Stop crying and start learning. | |} ---- ---- I don't hold anyone at any level. I don't look down on anyone new or old. I certainly don't expect to be sworn at in the text chat for saying "hello" and asking how people are. I am patient and will give new players as long as they need, that doesn't bother me in the slightest. What DOES bother me is the attitude some players have got since we've gone f2p. They are rude, unwilling to learn and abusive. Vet or new, I should not be bullied by children who think it's okay to swear at other people just because they have the anonymous platform to do it... | |} ---- ---- You're mixing messages now, sadly. Spoon feeding can lead to elitism, of course. Elitism is the attitude towards people, got nothing to do with in-game experience, skill level, etc. You can be in there for the first time, crappy gear and still be elitist. So when talking about elitism we're talking about attitude. I also touch the attitude regarding helping other people. You seem to assume that I meant we should carry them through. It's not what I mean and talk about. I mentioned an example in which you help someone new understand mechanics better, so you as a group can move forward easier. That IS helping someone so he/she can help You. If they are not willing to learn, not much will help. But you can't expect every new player to be unwilling, or if a character got crappy gear that they are unwilling. Lack of experience, understanding of the mechanics of a boss fight, etc, are not always signs of someone unwilling to learn. We all start somewhere. On the other hand, something that I do believe carry people a lot in these kinds of games are addons. TapThat, Interuptor, RaidCore, DaBomb, etc etc. Whatever they may be called. Some are really useful, yes. But some, if removed, can render a player useless. Because the person rely too much on the addon to play the game for him/her. That's how I see it. The addon tell you what to, when to do it or does it for you. Or having a raid leader call out everything all the time. This attitude is not healthy. To rely too much on other people or other things. This is getting closer to lazyness. So the lazyness you accuse me of defending. No, a misunderstanding from your part. We can talk about that more if you like in PM's. But please guess less. For the OP this might be a reality, which it is for many others. There are actually people out there that are getting kicked from groups because of elitist people. I've seen a lot of elitist people wanting to get carried. Usually it's been the players that think they are good, but are not as good as they believe. So they do not fit in a guild that actually got that higher standard they look for in other people. A lot of raging, screaming and cursing other people. Looking down on other people, kicking those that are not "worthy". Not saying there isn't any elitist people in higher and lower levels. They come in all ranges. Thumbs up. Keep that up. And I do agree. With the F2P change more people came. It's sort of because it's a F2P game now. It's easy to put such a game aside. To not invest yourself, to not care. When you don't care it's easy to be rude and abusive as well. It's not ok, at all. Still real people playing these games. Abusive players can make other genuine nice players quit, which is a sad thing. Edited November 4, 2015 by Alysion | |} ---- ---- Just going to point out that ilvl 65-70 should be fine, as you won't get better than ilvl 70 gear until you've done dungeon content or higher. Assuming it's runed, of course. | |} ---- ---- Sorry, I may have read your other posts wrong. I believe we are in agreement when it comes to people attitude in game, though I personally prefer using the term "Sense of entitlement" or "Arrogance" over "Elitism". "Elitism" is just so overused in so many different ways now that it doesn't bear any meaning nowadays. Everyone has their own definition of what "Elitism" means. Entitlement/Arrogance is precisely what you are describing. Regarding the LFG, asking at the start if everyone is experienced is fine... Except the part where it's not fine. It all come back to what I said in my other post. Give them them a bone and they'll just believe that they'll get a bone every time they enter a dungeon and if they don't, it's because people are "Elitists" assholes. They'll expect someone to ask them if they are experienced for the dungeon and will avoid saying anything, not because they are scared, but because they were conditioned to not have to be the one making the first step. Just like how WoW conditioned players into super easy brain dead LFG tool where AFKing to make toasts is fine. I'm not saying that we shouldn't help other players. It's the complete opposite... I'm saying we should help them properly. Which is by teaching them how they can stand for themselves. They won't ever reach the level of skill required to complete the hardest content if they always have to rely on everyone else. After years of raiding and helping people in every ways possible for my guilds raids to be more successful, I came to the conclusion that no matter how much I want to help someone, helping them directly will only benefit my guild and the player I am helping themselves temporarily. The moment that the spec or strat I showed them is obsolete, they will just be back to square one. Meanwhile, there are players whom I only gave a simple advice, without showing them anything concrete, that became some of the best players I know because they took my advice and made the most out of it rather than just ask me for a DPS rotation or build that would only improve the character rather than the player. Indirect help is the only way to help someone. Even if they don't realize you helped them, the only thing that matters is that they improved. Not only as a player but as a person too. Don't tell someone how to do it right. Tell them how to not do it wrong. "Tell your group if you need help so they can help you." isn't a good advice. "If you need help, staying silent won't do anything for you." is a good advice. Why? Because there is a huge difference between telling someone exactly what to do and letting them figure out what they should do by ruling out what they shouldn't do. No matter how obvious what you are trying to teach someone can be. It should never be direct (Unless their life is on the line obviously...). Now obviously... if it's simple questions like: What are medals in dungeons? A direct answer is better. But if it's something like: How can I do more DPS? A direct answer is bad. Edited November 4, 2015 by Fluffy McNuggets | |} ---- ---- And how would the game be able to tell if you are legitimately kicking an abusive person? I don't like the idea of giving a vote-kicked person a debuff, I've been kicked from LFG content because I happened to be the same class and role as one of the other players in the partial group I got put in with, and they didn't want "competition" for loot. Edited November 4, 2015 by beattlebilly | |} ---- Indeed. The vote-kick 'debuff' is the time you have to spend waiting in the queue for another group. Let me tell you....that's plenty! | |} ---- ---- ---- All you really need to do is ask a few simple questions and give a few simple answers: "Do you know how this boss works?" If anyone answers no, just quick the quick and dirty version. If you wipe, ask: "Ok, what did we do wrong? Did we miss an interrupt? Does anyone not understand what we're supposed to do here?" followed by a very simple breakdown of what to do. If you're running DPS meters and someone is just plain horrible, offer some tips. If they don't pick up significantly after another try, then vote-kick and explain why politely. "Sorry, this boss requires more DPS than you can do. Check a guide on how to increase your damage and try again later." Because just yelling at someone "WTF NOOOB! L2P!!" and kicking them doesn't help anything. You don't need to spend hours educating them on the right way to play, but it doesn't take much effort to drop a little advice that might make the difference between a successful run and sitting in the queue picking your nose and being angry. Edited November 4, 2015 by Elite Seraph | |} ---- ---- ---- I personally wont kick people from runs unless they afk or are being douches. But i'm not going to ask every time, have you done this boss? I'm going to assume you hvae by queing up, and it's up to the player to say, hey never done this what do i need to do. | |} ---- ---- ---- The best advice I can offer you is to try and do group content when you can dedicate your time to the group. I'm pretty patient and don't mind waiting up for people a couple of minutes, but you do have to realize that needing to go afk mid-instance is usually frowned upon as you are negatively impacting 4+ other people. If I were to join a dungeon and then have to take care of something mid-progress and got kicked in the meantime? I'd just say it was fair game since I wasn't as ready as I thought I was before clicking on the accept queue button. I'd feel bad if I forced several people wait on me. Edited November 5, 2015 by Frosthaven | |} ---- ---- if you have to go for a "Few minutes" then leave. People waited 20 minutes in queue and YOU clicked ready. If the group is new and cant 4 man the dungeon then you should get kicked and requeue when you are ready. | |} ---- thats exactly the point... the veteran player is expected to use his time to explain every encounter or create a good atmosphere by asking them if they know what to do or w/e? guys... double standards much? The noob has to invest to get better... on its own...with his time...Its just lazy and imo rude to not prepare if you know that WS dungeons are hard. Its the same principle in real life you have to learn a profession and get good at it. Unless your Daddy owns a company or you get lucky you have to work on your success not wait for others to just offer it to you. | |} ---- It really does go both ways imho. When it comes to grouping up with randoms everyone should do what they can to buffer in success. This means asking about fights you don't understand and saying you are new to it, as well as ensuring everyone is prepped if you yourself understand the mechanics. Only when people start acting like a group will they really accomplish anything. Be wary of your impact on other players no matter who you are. If you are a vet and running with randoms, know what you are signing up for and help where possible. If you are new and running with randoms, ask questions and let people know. Once upon a time these simple things didn't have to be stated on a forum though, as it's mostly just common courtesy and sense. I guess it's just a different world now a days. | |} ---- ---- ---- Yup, the kick function is a two way street. Got an elitist smurf ruining your groups attempts to learn the dungeon? Kick them, they'll probably be happier to re-Q and hope for a more experienced group. If you're a group of experienced players with 1/2 noobies who aren't listening to advice, kick them and replace with more experience players. When all's said and done LFG is a tool to aide people in meeting others, but ultimately like any true MMO, you've gotta find a guild that matches your mindset and skill level, then play with them. That's the best way to have fun in MMO's. | |} ---- ---- ---- And on the same token, the mark of a bad player is the new guy treating the vets like crap because they assume that anything that comes out of the vet's mouth is condescending, elitist drivel instead of the friendly advice the vet is trying to give out. | |} ---- Unless your name is orrestes and you only do 10k dps cause bad xD | |} ---- ---- Better to do 10k dps than be dead due to the #1 excuse from austrialia.......my lag got me killed. Or my favorite so far, my cat is drowning. Edited November 5, 2015 by Orrestes | |} ---- Its ok my rotation is better than yours with 300ms xD Bro like no shit it was crazy yesterday. Everything flash flooded so fast. Took us like 30 minutes to find the little shits | |} ---- If you don't ask, then IMHO you don't get to complain if the fight doesn't go well either. You're in a random LFG group with random people. It's self-defense to take a couple seconds to double check if people have a clue. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Yep. Definitely the best way to learn. You really shouldn't random until you've gotten all of the dungeons solidly under your belt. | |} ---- That's no reason to throw common courtesy out the window. "Just because" it's a PUG, it doesn't mean we should all act like jackwagons, regardless of our skill level or how long we've been playing. I do agree that if we want to fully control the outcome of the run, we should make our own groups. If you're going in with specific reasons to do it beyond just getting the content done, form a group. But if you PUG, be decent to the other people in the group. Yes, you can. You can queue as group in a specific dungeon, or a random one. Best bet would be to find the player created channels, and ask for groups in there. If you're on main Entity, Dominion is /chjoin EntityLFM and Exile is /chjoin LFG. Edited November 5, 2015 by beattlebilly | |} ---- ---- ---- Agree with this being frustrating, as someone who pugs vet dungeons daily I see both great groups and horrible groups. If they aren't showing signs of improvements and we don't vote kick I will generally just leave and eat the timer, my personal time is worth enough to me where I will not waste it on someone who isn't going to put forth proper effort. The worst is when they don't help interrupt and die 2 seconds into fights (like Mordechai dying on the very first laser repeatedly. | |} ---- ----